Editor's note: We'll be publishing Johnston's interview with Colorado Matters later this week.
Denver's runoff election is underway, with ballots dropping on May 15. Colorado Matters' Ryan Warner sat down with candidate Kelly Brough, the former Denver Metro Chamber of Commerce CEO and chief of staff to former Mayor John Hickenlooper, to discuss housing, crime, education, environment, transportation and what makes her different from her opponent, former state Sen. Mike Johnston.
The following interview has been lightly edited for clarity.
Ryan Warner: What do you see as the biggest difference between you and Mike Johnston? Because voters may struggle to differentiate you. I mean, you're both centrist, well-financed white candidates with a background in government. You're both earning endorsements from people who used to have this job. How do you see yourself as different?
Kelly Brough: Well, given how you framed it, there's probably a few ways I see myself different. One is my lived experience has been probably very different than Mike's. My father was murdered when I was an infant. My family has been on government assistance. My husband struggled with addiction, and my girls and I lost him to suicide. My husband was Ojibwe, which is an Indigenous tribe, so my girls are biracial and I would say my experience in life and understanding of the race issues in this nation came when I married him at 22 and started to see those distinctions and understand my privilege.
I would say all of those things really shaped values in me, service to others, everybody gets another chance, the importance of community, how strong we are when we come together and support each other, the resiliency of the human spirit. I see that resiliency in Denver as well. I guess a second difference would be I have been in high level jobs in the city and responsible for managing the day-to-day operations under John Hickenlooper when he was mayor. I was his chief of staff.
Warner: You also led HR for the city and county.
Brough: I did. I led HR. You probably saw I plowed on the runways of our old airport, and I think that's a distinction because the city is a complex organization and a huge operation and unique in its culture.
Warner: I want to pick up on a word you used that Denver is resilient. Does Denver need to bounce back right now? Has Denver lost its mojo?
Brough: I don't think we've lost our mojo, but I do think way too many of our residents are struggling with safety, are struggling with affordability, are struggling with being able to make a life here, or their kids being able to envision a life here. And to me that requires some resiliency because some of the reasons we're struggling too are people who are unhoused. I think we are struggling with addiction issues throughout our city, our nation, but I'll just focus on Denver. So yeah, I think there's a resiliency required.
Warner: We will circle back to many of those issues you laid out in a bit. I want to say that while Denver has over 700,000 people, the metro has more than 3 million. What ought to be the region's top priority? And I realize Denver doesn't set that alone, but how would you work with other cities to address said priority?
Brough: This may actually be another distinction between Mike and I. I actually believe the biggest challenges we face today will only be addressed by us working together as a region. Addressing how we help house and shelter people would be an example. I've met with mayors already throughout this region, saying, "I don't think we can do this one alone. I think we have to do it together."
Warner: Are you talking about a network of shelters?
Brough: Yeah. I'm talking about a network of housing and sheltering support and services for people who are unhoused today. And five sitting mayors in the metro area endorsed me in my homeless plans saying, we agree we have to do this work as a region.
Warner: Does that mean shipping people out of Denver into a suburb?
Brough: No. I mean, what we do today is we sweep them across each other's borders, right? We sweep people from block to block, neighborhood to neighborhood, not improving the living conditions of people who are unhoused or the neighborhoods where they're living. And instead, I think what it means is together we build the system that allows us to house and shelter people throughout our region.
Warner: Can you point to a community where you think there is a lack of sheltering?
Brough: Yeah. I think a number of our surrounding communities would tell you most of the support and services are in Denver for people who are unhoused today, and most of those are in downtown Denver. And so I think there is an opportunity. We're seeing some cities in Jefferson County are exploring some of their first housing options for people who are unhoused. So I think there's huge opportunity here.
Warner: How do you fight the notion of people who don't want those in their backyards?
Brough: This will probably always be an issue, but I also think this is where leadership is really required from the next mayor and frankly all the mayors in the region. And that is a recognition. We need to house and shelter people. And the alternative to not doing this is, I think, 173 people died on our streets last year because they're unhoused. 269 the year before. This is where the alternative is what we see today: People fending for themselves throughout our neighborhoods and our region. Or we house and shelter people and provide dignity and ensure people are treated humanely.
Warner: Presumably neighborhood groups know all that.
Brough: Listen, we have a hard time having affordable housing of any kind for our workforce sometimes in our neighborhoods. This is real work we have to do together, and I think the next mayor has to lead this conversation. It's probably why we're seeing that bill at the Capitol right now...
Warner: On land use in housing, which has encountered so much resistance.
Brough: Exactly. Because I think cities want to maintain the ability to make these decisions, but we also have to recognize we have to grow more densely. We need more housing that's affordable, and we have to lead that work, and I would as mayor.
Warner: So that's a lot of what, but not how. How do you get there if there's the kind of resistance that folks like you are seeing?
Brough: So I will give you an example. I was the chair of Habitat for Humanity, the board of directors last year. I've been on the board for a number of years, and often when we were building in a neighborhood in this region, we faced opposition. And how we got there was to sit down and have conversations for months, often to talk about what the fears are, how you could address them, what of those were realistic and what weren't, and we successfully built. That's what I would do as mayor.
Warner: Should the state have the power to tell you if you're elected mayor, where density can and cannot be built. The idea that basically the state overrides local zoning and says multi-family everywhere.
Brough: This is the primary job of our Denver City Council. Those 13 council members make land use and zoning decisions. I said I would talk with the council that I'm serving with as we take a position, and I respect the city has come out in opposition. I too think the most important decisions that we make as a city are our land use. But I also understand the state is inviting a conversation that we all probably have to engage in, and that is, are we actually accomplishing and building the way we need to for climate reasons, for transportation reasons, for water, air quality? We have to build more densely around our transit stations.
Warner: So more density around transit. That means density in a specific place. Denver's is a strong mayor. You have the power to override the council. So let me go back to the fundamental question. Does the state, should the state be able to tell a mayor or a city council what its zoning should be?
Brough: Just so we're clear, the mayor could veto the council, but council does do zoning and planning. That said, I would like to lead that discussion in our city with our residents about where that development should be.
Warner: Well, okay. That sounds like taking a position actually. Sounds like you're saying, 'I don't think that the legislature or the governor should have that power.'
Brough: I'd like the chance to show we're capable of doing what we need to do. I also want to say this though, Ryan. This is a conversation we have to have as a region, because we're not doing what we need to do today.
Warner: In the past couple of years, Denver's growth has slowed. If you were elected, would you have a growth mentality? Do you want more people here?
Brough: I feel like what we have to really focus on is making sure the people who are here are able to afford to live here. So current people who work here, the opportunities allowed them to choose the city to live in. So that's been my primary focus. I am extremely worried about downtown though, and I think I do have a growth mentality for downtown in terms of returning more jobs, so we have a more active downtown. Growing residential downtown, so we have a larger neighborhood there. I am very worried about our downtown. And you can see our restaurants and retailers. I think we've lost a thousand businesses downtown.
Warner: Growing jobs downtown. Doesn't that mean you have to buck the trend globally of people who are working from home and want that kind of flexibility? We have to kind of say, hasta la vista to the notion of full high rises?
Brough: I think we have to say hasta la vista to everybody coming in five days a week, like the olden days, five years ago. I think instead, how we could think about it, though, is grow jobs recognizing there will be a remote aspect probably to many jobs in our future, but we still have to revitalize and grow jobs downtown. They're just not going to be there 100 percent.
Warner: Why would I take three floors of a high rise for an employee base that only comes in two times a week?
Brough: You may not take three floors. You may take one, but I still would like you to take that one.
Warner: And how would you encourage that?
Brough: I think we have a couple things. One is, we still have businesses there -- talking to them about keeping that investment in our downtown. Some of the big issues are safety, and so really focusing on how we ensure safety. Completing the 16th Street Mall is another issue, certainly downtown, keeping that on schedule and ensuring we get it done. I also think today, I think we have five office buildings downtown that are basically being handed back to their lenders. They can't make their payments. I think some of those, it's pretty clear, might be good ones to transition to residential. And Manhattan did this in the 90s, and it really worked. I think that's another way to revitalize our downtown and bring people into it.
Warner: Would you want to attract new business from out of state and from abroad?
Brough: Investment, yes. I do think that's good. Typically, a new business or an expansion of an existing [one] or new jobs, and I do think really good jobs is what I'd focus on. In my history, we focused on jobs above median wage to try to attract those because those improve people's lives.
Warner: Doesn't that inherently mean more people, just to go back to the growth question.
Brough: It means more jobs, and so the people here can get those jobs too. Often they're hiring people from here when they're bringing those jobs to Denver.
Warner: Although it's also true that Colorado has had to import some of those folks in the past.
Brough: Yeah, so I think our in-migration definitely has been very high. As a matter of fact, it's made us a whiter, wealthier city, that in-migration, not always for jobs, but people choosing the quality of life we have here. And it's resulted in one of the most educated workforces in the nation.
Warner: Is that a trend that you like?
Brough: No. I think to have a sustainable city that really works, you really want to ensure that you have the full range of the kinds of jobs you have in your city. People choosing and being able to choose to live in the city. I think you need the diversity in every single way, including people of color in our city.
Warner: What steps might you take as mayor that the business community would not like? You come from a strong business background having led the Chamber of Commerce, also having served under Mayor Hickenlooper -- very pro business. He was a brewer who became mayor. Talk about a decision you'd make that might tick off business.
Brough: One is, I intend to help build the housing that we need that's a "for-sale condo product" as mayor, where we could get back in the business of people being able to own homes and build wealth in our city. And I think the most effective way to do that is to build it ourselves. And so I suppose I'd be competing against developers.
Warner: So public construction of viable condos. Tell me about this.
Brough: So I actually got to tour this in Munich where they built on a surface parking lot, almost like covered parking, a hundred affordable units for families. And it was built by the city. By the way, the playground was on the top floor, and I thought no lawyer's going to let me put the playground on the top floor. But they were beautiful, and it was built on a surface lot that was next to a rec center, publicly owned, and it was taking out the price of the land basically to make it more affordable.
So I just looked around our city at how many surface lots we have, which are not a great use, that are publicly owned. And we have a lot. And if I could partner with Denver Public Schools or RTD, we'd have even more. And I think this could be the opportunity for the city to build an affordable product that's for sale where people could live in neighborhoods they never could have afforded. Families begin to build wealth through homeownership. Their kids can go to schools they never could have accessed, and you start to build the social capital that really makes a city work.
Warner: There's been some pushback on just how much of this land is available from City Council. So do you have an idea of how many units you would be able to build under a partnership like that?
Brough: There is limited land if you're looking at open green space or brown fields; the city doesn't own a lot of that. But surface lots, there's quite a bit. So I want you to think about our libraries, police stations, firehouses. These are all publicly owned, rec centers, and then of course Denver Public Schools and RTD as partners. There's quite a few.
Warner: You wouldn't be bulldozing some of those to create housing. That's not what you're saying when you're talking about libraries and fire stations?
Brough: Not at all. Building on top of the surface parking where you could have a for-sale condo. Yeah, so I suppose that's one place I'd compete.
Warner: You talk about removing the price of the land from the equation, so making it more affordable. But if the city owns that, that's real value for taxpayers.
Brough: Yeah. It's like the taxpayer maintains that ownership of the land. So, it's land banking or land trust. You're just removing it from the price of the home.
Warner: Longtime Denverites, particularly working-class people, say they're on the brink of moving if they haven't already and they are eyeing suburbs or other states altogether. Talk to a person in that boat right now and tell them why they should vote for you.
Brough: I'll start by just sharing. I moved here from Montana, my husband and I, to start our life. And like so many, being able to own a home on the west side of town started to change our lives. The opportunities to get a good job, start some small businesses, have our children, have them get a great education. Those are the things that I call the promise of Denver.
Warner: In other words, Denver for you supported a family.
Brough: It did support a family, and I think we can do it again. And I think it requires a mayor who understands the challenges that our families are facing. It requires that you feel safe in your neighborhood; that we focus on the drivers of crime and we know what they are. There are kids getting a great education, access to real economic opportunity. Those jobs we were talking about earlier, really important, stable housing, recreational opportunities for our kids to network and have social development. Those things really matter, and I know as mayor we could restore those things together so that you can see the promise for your family too and choose Denver.
Warner: Do you feel safe in Denver, Kelly Brough?
Brough: Most days, yes, I do.
Warner: And the days you don't?
Brough: Well, I will just share with you, I was at an event downtown at about 9 o'clock. I was leaving it, and I decided to jump on light rail. I don't know if you know this, Ryan. I have commuted on my bike for 30 years, and when I don't commute on my bike, I typically take the train or a bus, and so I thought, "Oh, I'll just jump on the light rail and take it to the station close to my home." I felt very comfortable until I didn't. I was the only person in my car, and when four people got in, who it appeared probably had just stolen some stuff from the store that was outside the station we were at, I was uncomfortable. And I really understand that discomfort for people, and I think we can do more.
I met with RTD to talk about some of the things they're doing. I think there's two issues there, right? One is activation. When more people are in that car, you don't feel as uncomfortable if people get on. That's true about our downtown too, where other people have described to me, they often feel very unsafe. I also think a recognition that sometimes we feel unsafe and it's not necessarily a criminal issue. Someone struggling maybe with mental health or an addiction. And I really support our STAR programs and increasing those mental health responders who can help address those issues, can also increase feelings of safety for people.
Warner: Would you arrest people to move them from an encampment?
Brough: So I'm going to take a minute to really make sure I answer this thoroughly. What we have to do for people who are in-house today is get them to safer locations as quickly as we can. But that's all using outreach workers, building relationships, moving people in communities, so they go together, keeping people with their partners and their pets. But we also know today, we have people who maybe for mental-health reasons or addiction reasons aren't able to make the best decisions for themselves. Today, we use maybe a mental-health hold in instances not because we think in 72 hours we can address your issue, but it introduces you to a behavioral health system that we could maybe start to get you some help.
When you're intoxicated or high and maybe not able to care for yourself, we'll take you to Denver Cares, which is run by Denver Health. I would use all of those tools, but if indeed it's freezing cold at night and someone's life is in danger and I have no way to get them indoors, I'm not going to leave them to fend for themselves. I would use the law to do that and to take them in, but not to criminalize them, not to put them through the criminal justice system, but to keep them safe and get them to a safer location.
Warner: Then where would that be?
Brough: So this is part of what I think we're still working on or what are the alternatives, so that we're not adding to the challenge they face, but also not leaving them to die on our streets, which is exactly what we're doing today.
Warner: Point to the gap. If you don't have the solution, what is the gap? In other words, is it a kind of shelter? Is it transitional housing?
Brough: I think it's probably much more like what Denver Cares does, where we have a safe bed and location while you either...
Warner: The dry out basically.
Brough: Yeah. So that you can make a better decision for yourself about how to keep yourself safe.
Warner: So an expansion of Denver Cares.
Brough: Yeah, maybe so. And a little bit beyond just intoxication, but yes, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. I want to emphasize, for me, the priority here is saving people's lives. I don't think any of us should accept the number of people dying because they're unhoused.
Warner: To the notion of public safety once again. Car theft is the most common crime in Denver right now, and these thefts are related to a lot of other types of crime. Say you are elected, Kelly Brough, someone's car is stolen. Why are they better off under your leadership?
Brough: Historically, we have accepted that when something is stolen, if it's of greater value, it's a worse crime. I'm going to submit to you, I don't think that's true about our cars today. Today if you own a car that's worth less than $2,000 and it's stolen, it's a misdemeanor. And I would say if you own a car that's worth less than $2,000, you probably don't have full coverage for insurance on that car, so you have no assistance in replacing it. I'm going to guess you're less likely to have it parked in a garage where it's less likely to be stolen. So increased likelihood that it's stolen. I'm going to guess you may be more likely to have an in-person job or you're very dependent on that car, maybe less likely to have a second vehicle, less likely maybe to be able to afford Uber and Lyft. All to submit that this notion that stealing a $2,000 car was a victimless crime or less of a victim, I disagree with.
Warner: Let me say that there is a bill in the legislature, of course it's the waning days session, but that would make any car theft a felony as opposed to a misdemeanor.
Brough: Yes. So I think this is exactly how we have to be thinking.
Warner: Denver has paid millions in settlements over police violence. Those dollars represent lives lost and broken. Those are also tax dollars. How would that pattern change if you're elected?
Brough: When I was deciding to run, public safety is one of the spaces that I really wanted to explore. Could you govern today? So what I did is I brought together people with vastly different views. A former chief of police and a former executive of the ACLU. People who helped me craft this plan were former police officers and managers of safety, an attorney who sued a police department and successfully brought in the Justice Department to take it over.
And you could imagine what I did is put this group around a table and asked the question, "What would make Denver safer today?" And we talked about a number of issues, and this is a group who probably shouldn't agree on anything, and we agreed on way more than we disagreed. And some of the fundamental issues we agreed on were sending the right responder. Sending a mental health professional instead of a police officer results in better outcomes for everybody. You'll see me increase that. Changing the culture in our police department. Really focusing on where we don't just wait for a huge incident like some of the ones we have seen, but day to day we become more transparent in our interactions as a police department where public can give us feedback regularly and ongoing on the smallest of interactions, where our officers start to give each other feedback about what they did well and what they could have done differently.
Warner: I hear you speaking of policing as customer service.
Brough: Yeah, I see policing as serving and protecting a community. It is serving the residents of this city, and I think our officers are committed to doing that work from my experience, but also we need to acknowledge that everybody can improve constantly and not wait for the huge terrible interactions that have resulted in some of the issues you talk about.
Warner: So would you change the balance of say, officers whose first tool is a kind of mental health response versus officers whose first tool might be handcuffs?
Brough: Yeah, so for me, it would be an alternative to an officer when it's a mental health response.
Warner: Would you change that balance?
Brough: Yeah, I would increase. It looks like in our 911 calls, we could have more of those mental health professionals going. We do another thing, Ryan, that I think is really working, and it's a co-responder program where an officer responds with a mental health professional. Those are going extremely well. I would look at even expanding that kind of partnership.
Warner: If elected mayor of Denver, you'll be in charge of the third busiest airport in the world. The most recent massive project there, the Great Hall buildout has lacked oversight according to the city auditor. Any first big move you'd make when it comes to DIA?
Brough: Yeah, this is so critical for our entire state's economic future. One of the questions of course is, "Who will you hire to run the airport?" For my entire cabinet, I will have a process for hiring that really brings together stakeholders, sort of what I described to you on public safety: people who see the world very differently but care deeply and have a vested interest in making sure we get the very best candidate. I would ask that team to do two things: identify the most critical issues for this department, and identify the top applicants you think I should be interviewing and selecting from.
Warner: I hear you saying when it comes to DIA, 'I'm going to delegate.'
Brough: No, I don't mean to only say that. I think it starts with making sure you have the right manager because I'm not an expert in everything and I need someone there that I can really count on to oversee it and guide. But I also understand as mayor, I am the ultimate decision maker, and I'm accountable for the decisions made there, and I take that seriously too.
Warner: Do you think that the Great Hall Project has been bungled?
Brough: Absolutely. I mean, we have had so many missteps in that project, and while I appreciate it's not taxpayer dollars out there, it is airlines and travelers who are paying the cost of that and frankly...
Warner: Through fees and things like that on the tickets.
Brough: Yes, exactly. And frankly, our reputation, it is our front door and we want it to represent that way. And if you go out there two hours early to make your flight and we can't get you there in time, this is a customer service problem. And so all of it is relevant.
I'll give another example though. When I was chief of staff, snowstorms, it was very hands-on to make sure we were plowing those runways to get that airport either open or prevent it from closing as often as possible because it's so critical to our economic vitality.
Warner: I want to stick to the idea of economics and maybe on a more personal level. We also invoked families earlier and whether they find a comfortable place to live and work and play in Denver, noting that you opposed paid family leave in the state legislature. You did give it to your own workers at the Denver Metro Chamber of Commerce. Is there a contradiction or at least a tension there?
Brough: For me, the important piece here is the paid family leave we passed at the ballot as voters doesn't provide a hundred percent pay to the lowest paid worker. I think our lowest-paid workers in this city can't afford to live here today. I certainly don't think a new mom can afford to take time off when she has a baby without having a hundred percent pay at least. And so I still think, and the city of Denver agrees, the city of Denver created its own program, which I'm thankful for and I strongly support. So for me, it's just about the policy matters. The value is consistent. I strongly support paid family leave.
Warner: How do you address climate change in Denver? And more specifically maybe what's not working about the current approach?
Brough: I think we have just such an urgency in this work. I'm going to focus on how I think you do it here because I really do believe the goals are science-based. It's possible the electrification certainly of our vehicles, but I think we have to make the investments that make that an easier choice. And I'll just give you some examples here. Denver's fleets have not yet been fully electrified. I would really advance that work, but we know the greatest impact can be around those fleets like Denver Public Schools and RTD. I would really look at if we could partner together to bring home some of the federal dollars. There's huge federal dollars available through the Inflation Reduction Act.
Warner: Those might start to constrict given the House.
Brough: That's fair. But it's really like New Deal kind of money, and I would intend to bring as much of that home as possible to begin that transition to electrification where we know we can have a real impact. But I think there's other things that we often don't talk about. I biked every neighborhood in Denver last summer when I was preparing to run, and one of the things I noticed is tree canopy. And if you're on the west side or the northeast side, significantly less. Frankly, I think it is harder to get out of your car if we want people to get out of their car. I would look at strategies around how we address tree canopy, where we don't have it, or cooling stations in neighborhoods who might desperately need them in those summer months where we're actually building them as community gathering places.
With this intention though of being a cooling spot, making investments in the communities who've been historically most negatively impacted by our environmental decisions. And we know these neighborhoods. Globeville, Elyria-Swansea would probably be the neighborhoods in Denver that have been most negatively impacted. And I'd be committed to putting investments there first to make sure that we're also starting to save residents money because we know some of this transition, while the upfront cost can be expensive, the savings for homes and families can be significant.
Warner: Earlier you mentioned being a bike commuter. You have told bike advocates that you support the VAMOS network. It's a low-stress street network where people can roll around the entire city on bike, scooters, skateboards, and maybe pat around on foot. You told Denver that you would not add more bike lanes to the city. What gives there?
Brough: Yeah, sorry. This one is the struggle of, and a recognition that our Vision Zero, which is that we kill zero bicyclists and pedestrians, which I'm really pro this idea. We're not doing well, we're actually heading in the wrong direction.
Warner: This was adopted under Mayor Hancock. Goals to eliminate traffic deaths by 2030, but in recent years, those deaths have risen.
Brough: Really risen. And so for me what I was saying is we need a reset on that. Are we making the right investments in the right places? I share the goal of zero deaths maybe because I'm out there all the time myself, but I also share the goal that we make it easier to get around with alternatives besides driving. I just think we need a reset to make sure we are making the right investments to achieve Vision Zero.
Warner: It's not that you're saying, "No new bike lanes;" it's you're saying,"I don't know that that's the answer yet."
Brough: I don't know that we're building them in a way that is improving safety, and my priority is safety when we build those.
Warner: People have spent a lot of money to get you elected. You and Mike were the top fundraisers in this race. Will you tell me about a time you've stood up to moneyed interests, your own donors even, to follow your convictions?
Brough: I will. When I was at the Chamber of Commerce, there was a ballot issue that had to do with takings. So this is when the government may restrict, in this case it was oil and gas, being able to drill or not drill. There was a bill that would require the government to pay for the cost of doing that. The assessment at the chamber that my team and I --
Warner: This kind of eminent domain territory...
Brough: It's similar. Yes, it's similar. Thank you for adding that. My team and I looked at it and felt like it would be devastatingly bad for the state, including potential for bankrupting the state of Colorado. I recommended to my board of directors, 55 board members, that we oppose that bill, and it was a ballot issue and that we oppose it publicly. We did, and the Chamber lost significant, probably a million dollars in investment because of that decision.
Warner: Presumably from oil and gas.
Brough: From oil and gas. But I felt it was the right decision, and I took responsibility to manage the financial impact of it and stuck with my view.
Warner: A listener reminded us, Kelly Brough, that you've dedicated a decade to lobbying for big business and that your partner is one of the most powerful lobbyists in Denver. What assurances can you provide that you will not just serve those interests as mayor?
Brough: A couple of things. First, with regard to David Kenney, before I even decided to run when we were just talking about it, the first thing he said is, I will not represent anyone doing business with the city. I'll fully remove my firm and myself. So there's no conflict for us. And so what was important to both of us is to ensure there would be no conflict, and there won't be. With regard to big business, I know the stereotype of what chambers are. The Denver Metro Chamber, probably 85 percent, maybe even 90 percent, are small businesses. It's really who you're supporting. It's who needs your help desperately to be successful. And so I do see those business interests as important, but not overriding and certainly not overriding residents. And I'm running for mayor to represent the people of this city, to do for them what was done for my family, and that is to be able to make a life here.
Warner: Kelly, thanks so much for being with us.
Brough: Thank you so much.
